The present unrest in Pakistan - Benazir Bhutto & David Miliband
The Today Programme BBC Radio 4 - 13th November 2007

James Naughtie: And we're going straight to Pakistan, to Lahore, where we can talk to Benazir Bhutto who is surrounded by thousands of troops and being prevented from having her march and who is on the line. Good morning.

Benazir Bhutto: Good morning.

JN: What is the situation where you now find yourself?

BB: Well we've got about four thousand Policemen all around the house including in the neighbours, armoured personnel carriers and massive trucks filled with red sand, barbed wire, and I'm just wondering when we have this huge deployment where Police of this kind can't be used to hunt down Osama bin Laden.

The whole problem in Pakistan has been the inability of General Musharraf's regime to focus on the real threat which is coming from the extremists in the tribal areas of Pakistan and instead they've concentrated on marginalizing the moderate forces which has just fuelled extremism further.

JN: For some time you've been engaged in a, a kind of dialogue with General Musharraf. What is your view now of his hold on power?

BB: Well I think General Musharraf should be, if he's lost the confidence of the people of Pakistan, he's at war with the judiciary of the country having arrested the judges, he's taken on the Bar Association, imposed censorship and basically alienated the press and the nation. He's attacked NGO groups who are also protesting, he is unable to give the nation a fair election, he's announced an election date no doubt, but one should look at all the things he didn't announce. He was given good advice by the Commonwealth, by the Foreign Secretary, by President Bush's Administration but he doesn't listen to the advice he is given, he is bent on maintaining and sustaining a dictatorship and dictatorship and Pakistan simply don't go together. It's dictatorship that has led to the political protest, it's dictatorship which has led to the rise of extremism.

JN: Can we take it from what you've just said that there are no circumstances under which you would serve in power with General Musharraf now?

BB: That's right there are no circumstances in which I could see myself serving with General Musharraf. I tried for more than a year, I did my best, I worked out a road map for democracy but he went back on that and imposed martial law. After that there were several people, foreign countries and people inside, that publicly called, and Foreign Secretary Miliband, that rightly called for General Musharraf to give a date when he would hold general election, give a date for when he would retire as Chief of Army Staff, release the judges and the political prisoners and lift the gags on the media.

Now these were given by a friend of Pakistan and would have helped diffuse the internal situation. But ...
JN: Well ...

BB: ... unfortunately General Musharraf did too little and if he does anything now it will be too late. He's alienated the people with his brute force by breaking in to homes, his police have broken in to homes, so I really think it's impossible for the People's Party and myself to work with him any more.

JN: We'll be talking to the Foreign Secretary in a moment, in fact I think he's listening to what you're saying now. Given what you've just said what would you like him to do and the British Government to do?

BB: Well it might not be very diplomatic but I would like to say to the Foreign Secretary to ask General Musharraf to step down. And certainly I feel that as long as General Musharraf is there the turmoil in Pakistan will continue and Britain really needs to look at the situation whether a nuclear armed nation, a country like Pakistan, can afford ...

JN: Well ...

BB: ... to go under. It's imploding. Britain has interests ...

JN: ... we'll ask ...

BB: ... in, in the region and it, we see our tribal areas have become safe havens for extremists ...

JN: ... what will you ...

BB: ... (indistinct) NATO troops and attack people in Pakistan.

JN: Finally, and briefly if you can Miss Bhutto, what will you do now?

BB: Well I intend to continue marching for democracy I intend to continue marching for an end to martial law.

JN: Benazir Bhutto in Lahore thank you.

Sarah Montague: Well with the time at ten minutes to eight we are now joined by the Foreign Secretary David Miliband who was listening to Benazir Bhutto there. Good morning.

David Miliband: Good morning.

SM: Will you ask President Musharraf to step down?

DB: Well we've been absolutely clear already that it's vital that President Musharraf fulfils his commitment to step down as head of the Army, that's one of the four pieces of the international jigsaw that have been absolutely a point of consensus and obviously I've talked about those points with Benazir Bhutto on two occasions on the phone and also in person. Stepping down as head of the Army is, is key, free and fair elections vital, media restrictions lifted and obviously the political prisoners, many of them from Benazir Bhutto's party, also have to be released.
SM: But as you will have heard her saying there whatever he does now it is too late so will you ask him to step down?

DB: Well we, we've made clear that he does have to step down as head of the Army and that democratic forces have to have their sway in ...

SM: Mr Miliband forgive me for pushing you but did, she's specifically saying that you need to ask him to step down as President.

DB: Right well that's the first time I've heard her say that, I, I, I came in halfway through the interview ...

SM: I think it is the first time that she's said it or at least ...

DB: ... yeah ...

SM: ... within the last hour ...

DB: ... yeah, I, I, I ...

SM: ... what is your response to it?

DB: ... well I think that the, as I said in the House of Commons last week, the situation in Pakistan is moving very fast. Even in the last twenty four hours we've had the meeting of the Commonwealth Ministers' Action Group which is saying that unless the situation improves then Pakistan will be suspended from the Commonwealth. I will look at, obviously, at what Benazir Bhutto has said but the, the point of consensus up to now with all of our international partners and I have to say also with opposition figures within Pakistan has been about the centrality of free and fair elections because in the end it has to be the people of Pakistan who decide who their Government should be, not me.

SM: Her argument though, as I say, is that it's too late for him to do something now, it's too late, there's nothing he can do, he needs to step down. From what you're saying, it's not too late.

DB: Well I think that's a matter in the end for the constitution of Pakistan. There, there is a constitution in Pakistan, it needs to be respected, it's vital that at the heart are free and fair elections ...

SM: But it's not, forgive me, it's not being respected at the moment is it?

DB: ... well it's not being respected, it's been suspended as, there, there's an emergency rule there, the constitution has been suspended. Elections have been confirmed for, for, before the 9th of January but as I said in the House of Commons in the Foreign Affairs Debate yesterday we must make sure that the elections are free and fair in that the opposition have a proper chance to put their case, they'll, the electoral rolls are in a proper state, and obviously also that political prisoners are released. So it's got to be the reality and substance of proper elections, not just the words of them.

SM: So the British Government position is the same as the Commonwealth, the, the, made yesterday, that within ten days the military rule must be lifted?

DB: Abs, absolutely the, the Commonwealth position was one that UK played an important part in creating. The importance of ten days, just for the benefit of listeners, is that the Commonwealth Heads of Government will be meeting next week, at the end of next week, in Kampala, and the 22nd of November relates to, to that meeting and that's, that's why the ten days has become important.

SM: You were invited on to speak before, of course, the development in Pakistan on the comments made by the Prime Minister last night who talked about foreign policy saying his foreign policy, he described it as hard headed internationalism. Now you, of course, as Foreign Secretary are the man implementing that policy, what does it mean to you?

DB: I think that the most important thing that it means is that we will use all the tools at our disposal, the so called soft power of diplomacy and trade but also the hard power of our military forces who are in action around the world, to ensure that we can advance British values and interests, and the more we can do that in international institutions obviously the more effective we are at utilising the relationships that we, and partnerships that we have around the world.

And I think one of the lessons of the, of the period since the end of the Cold War, the lessons of the period since September 2001, is that, you know, in a way Pakistan makes this point, if you pose the choice as either you favour democracy or you favour security, in other words either you favour aid programmes or you favour military action, you don't get it right. You have to use both and whether it be in Darfur, which the Prime Minister talked about yesterday, we've got to make sure that we get our programmes for economic governance, for political reform and for security right. I think that's the heart of the message the Prime Minister was putting across.